Landlord Electrical Safety Certificates & Regulations (England & Wales)

@Simon B. My what a plate of spaghetti! Simply put, its best if you explain to the upstairs flat that there are issues which could give rise to potenial danger. Its best if the earthing arrangement is brought up to speed for all parties concerned.
The technicalities are a little difficult to explain and cover every aspect without seeing it, but effectively you are the same building, if the worst happened. Put it in writing if you have to, then they can't claim ignorance to the problem.
We wouldnt have this crap if the supply network took some responsibility, they get away with murder.
Hope all goes well, its not too painful a job.

Thanks @stealthbomber. I agree about the power network. They were very quick to wash their hands of it unless I wanted to have the power cable replaced. This starts from £1500. What are any thoughts on cable replacement versus earth rods? I'm told earth rods are not always successful and also degrade over time so need replacement. Thanks again for answers.

@Simon B. There's no real issue with earth spikes if installed correctly, and you need to get your rental property compliant as the main priority.
Yes, getting the supply sorted would be the best solution, and it would cure the problem for both dwellings. But that's not going to happen quickly, dealing with utilities takes on a life of its own.

So after 3 texts and 2 phone calls our landlord decided to answer our call today. We asked him what he has in place as the inspection needs to be done by 1 April. He says he knows nothing about it (he has 12 properties) and then accuses my partner of being the only tenant in the country who must know about it, despite him telling him I am a landlord myself. He then went on saying if that's the case he would be putting our rent up!!! A complete bully and 🔔end. Not fair he should have us over a barrel like this. If we report him we could be out of a home 😪

@Connie

What is wrong with landlords these days? I bend over backwards to make sure my tenants are happy and they know it, because of this I have a peaceful life. Landlords such as yours should be sticking to his duty and getting the things done that need to be done. I've completed 90% of my EICRS with a few more to do, but I'm on it.

As for him threatening to put your rent up because you're a landlord yourself, well he seems like a right arrogant pr**k. Hand in your notice and find somewhere else. It's not worth the hassle.

Hi I have 3 properties and the tenants have been in them for over 10 years, i have not renewed the tenancy since the start and have discussed the duration with them and they have agreed will remain for the next 10-15 years until i retire and need to sell the property. Does this exempt me from the EICR as it is long term tenancy. Could i draw up a 7 year tenancy now?

Thanks

Lisa

I would think you would need documentary evidence to support that position, and as you would only need to produce that if you were in serious trouble (fire, fall out with tenant) the authorities would look at it quite carefully...

Personally, I would get the inspection done and follow the recommendations as far as practicable.
Do you get gas safety certs? Why skimp on leccy.

I received this as one of the reasons (as well as a couple of 'Further Investigations') as to why my rental property didn't get a SATISFACTORY rating:

"Downlights aren't fire-rated and require changing to LED units - C2"

but elsewhere it's suggested that this isn't in the scope of the EICR, unless they (halogen downlights) are actually shown to be dangerous? We can replace them without too much problem, but I just wonder if this is actually a genuine "C2" or a make-work project for the sparky? He described this as a "strong advisory" which, in my understanding, should be a C3?

ALSO

How are people interpreting the requirement in the guidance to send any reports of remedial work to both the tenant and to "the local authority". Is this just if the LA ask for it? I have no contact with the LA - I wouldn't know who or where to send it to?

@Lisa Dopson. The length of tenancy is irrelevant, it doesnt get you out of having the EICR by April 2021.
Its prescribed as a 5 year maximum interval, to have an electrical inspection and achieve a safe and satisfactory condition.
A visual report should suffice if theres a change of tenant shortly after the inspection, and theres no changes or alterations from the original report.

@AlexS Fire rated downlights are needed where the ceiling forms a fire compartment from other areas. If its an ordinary dwelling they're not required.
If you have the older halogen lamps, they should have been installed with fire hoods as thats part of building regs.
This is where some electricians are caught in the misunderstanding and crossover between BS7671 and Building Regs.
Some electricians wouldn't even comment on it, others a code 3, but its not a code 2 based on fire rating alone.

Hello.

I have a new build flat (about 12 years old) which has just had an EICR and has failed with a C2. The reason for the failure was the downlighters in a shower enclosure was not protected via an RCD.

On the face of it, that makes sense BUT the downlighters are 12v and powered from a double insulated transformer. I queried the fail with the electrician (and also asked if replacing the MCB with an RCBO would do) and was told:-

"It is mainly to do with the lack of RCD protection & no supplementary bonding present. Yes, the fitting are low voltage but they are not protected via RCD and within the zones, hence us coding a C2."

Is this correct - or has someone failed it assuming the lamps were mains - and when I pointed out that they were 12v decided to bluff their way forward. I also thought it odd that an electrician would refer to a 12v fitting as "low voltage" too.

I did ask the electrician at what point the code changed to make an installation that was fully to code 12 years ago, now a "dangerous fail". He didn't answer that.

Was the electrician right to C2 this - or should it have passed? I would greatly appreciate your thoughts please.

Many thanks
Guy

@Guy Tibbert As ever, nothing is straight forward with electrics. Assuming you're looking at an installation circa 2009, this should have been compliant to 17th Edition anyway, and therefore you should have a dual RCD consumer unit protecting all circuits. That would end the conversation.
It sounds, at best guess that you have a split board, with one RCD protecting sockets and power outlets. Lighting would then be on a normal MCB as per 16th Edition, with supplementary bonding to metallic pipework and electrical circuits.
Its not that you have a dangerous installation, but things get a little involved. Proving cables run in safe zones, depth buried in walls, especially partition dry wall, or metallic protection is nigh on impossible to verify. Its recognised that the safest way forward is to achieve RCD/RCBO protection to all circuits, and as its a relatively simple and non intrusive process, that's the take on it.

Ok, that's fair enough then, thank you.

It just seemed "odd" that it had failed when it seemed to me to be intrinsically safe.

I will get a local electrician to RCBO it, do I then have to have another EICR do you know - or can the electrician doing the work just provide a reciept detailing the corrective work done and keep it with the certificate?

Thank you for you clarification, much appreicated.

Guy

@Guy The rcbo will require an electrical installation completion certificate issuing for that particular circuit, as its a change of protective device. Your contractor then takes ownership of that circuit.
Simply include it as an addendum to your EICR, if thats the only thing making it unsatisfactory.

Just had Eicr done as a landlord with a C2 fail as follows

6.18 e)no rcd protection on lighting cooker or heating

Is RCD protection mandatory or recommended?

Thanks in advance.

Geoff

@Stealth Bomber @Guy Although nobody would argue that RCD protection is a good idea and recommended etc,. as I understand it there is nothing in the new regulations that requires an installation to be brought up to date as long as there is no signs of stress / overheating etc or Live wires exposed. If the installation is still as it was when installed then it should not attract any C1 or C2 faults. The 18th edition states this.

Electrical Safety First guidance notice No 1 (www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk)
3. Legal requirements 3.1. There is no legal requirement that calls for an existing installation to be upgraded to current standards.

Electrical Safety First guidance notice No 4 (www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk) seems to be the guidance to follow for existing installations.
"As its title indicates, this is a report and not a certificate. It provides an assessment of the current in-service condition of an electrical installation against the requirements of the edition of BS 7671 current at the time of the inspection, irrespective of the age of the installation".

I look forward to being corrected. I am sure that the laywers will have a field-day when a few of theses cases are contested.

Awesome. Thank you.

@Brian H Just another situation in the electrical industry where everything is made so clear, we all have a different view!
I suspect the main issue stems from those who qualified to 17th Edition. They had full RCD protection drummed into them, so there's no give and take in understanding older installations. I doubt those who worked or trained to 16th edition, would give a code 2 simply for the lack of RCD prescence.

@Stealth Bomber, So true, I still have my 14th edition to refer to! Shows my age.

@Brian H Wow, those were hazy days! I hope you are long since retired and in good health.

@Stealth Bomber. Hazy indeed, but much simpler. A fuse was a bit of wire. Pvc cable was the new material. Ring mains were the new system. Earthing to lighting circuits was advised. Earthing was ??????????? whatever , usually to the company main or copper rod, no measurements. Testing was optional, I had (and still have) the wind up mega voltage generator tester, great for Christmas parties. Building regs didn't want to know, RCD's and breakers were unheard of although I did fit a Chiltern Voltage operated breaker 100ma on my own TT installation about 50 yrs ago.
I retired from the building industry as a Chartered Builder, bought a boatyard and started again, now I am just a Landlord (3 units), although that is becoming a full time job these days just keeping up with the regs. Health is good apart from needing a new set of lungs after years of smoking, cement, asbestos, fumes, chemicals etc. You pay for your indiscretions eventually. Coming up 78 in May.

Thanks for all your information. Have had an unsatisfactory EICR done with several things wrong £200 for 30..40 minutes inspection. I did email the company pre testing some few times as per Gov't guidelines with questions as I'm not an electrician and wanted to have a competent person to do the test, remembering this is all online with just company name and spoke to the secretary a few times who assured me that the company was approved, insured and had professional indemnity, so had no idea the name of the sparks until I received the report which I had to request. Company with NICEIC and I had checked on the site but when I checked his name on the Competent person site following the test he was not passed competent to do testing. Well everything was wrong with the test and although old property with no trip but when I asked if it was UNSAFE they could not answer and were irritated with me. But the question is folks that if your request a testing by a company can you assume that they can do any further work needed within 28 days as he offered me July...very big out of town job booked. Where does that leave us in terms of getting work done within the time frame not to mention free re test.. Reply from the Basildon company with lovely online pictures of Vans etc (sure its a one man band working from home with his wife) I'm an honest, decent person (not a complete Mug) and all this is very upsetting. Just thought I'd share as must be others with similar tales. Just need an honest electrician and how can one know one? I'm a private landlord with only 2 properties which I want to keep safe for tenants.

@Carmel. Firstly give him the chance to carry out remedial works, and inform him that the Landlord Electrical Safety Regs states within 28 days. Although there's no clear timeframe under BS7671 wiring regs, 'urgent' means a similar, reasonable period anyway, not 4 months time!
If the company is NICEIC registered, it would be worth contacting them if you dont get any joy from their 'approved contractor'.
These things can drag on, which does you no favours. If you get the feeling its not working out, sometimes it's better to write it off as an experience, and put more effort into sourcing a reputable company. Look locally for someone with premises and registered company house.

@ Stealth Bomber
Thank you for your advice, much appreciated. He appears not to want to take the job on and as I now know he is not on the Competent Person Scheme although he says he is in NICEIC and that covers him. So think I'll just put it down to experience. The difficulty most of them are home based . Its picking a decent one. Maybe just sell up as who needs the stress.
Thank you

Hi all, would be grateful for some advice. Our rental failed - it needs rewiring. No, it wasn’t a dodgy electrician, it was someone we know and trust. The problem is our tenants work from home and are refusing to give us access for the 2 days it would take to re-wire in order for it to pass. They can’t cope with the noise and interruption to power for those days. What can I do? Could I get them to sign a disclaimer to say they have refused the necessary work? Thanks

@Lemon19sherbert. Nothing like cooperative tenants, and all this working from home lark has caused even more problems.
Ultimately the Landlord Electrical Safety Regs are on your side, so notify your tenant that you have a 28 day timeframe to make the property compliant.
Its a wild one that the property needs such major work doing, and you need to play it smart so you dont end up in a ' the place is going to burn down and we're all going to die and it should never have been rented out
in the first place' situation.
Be reasonable, explain you have to meet these new regs to be legally complaint, and some upgrading is required. They can't be working all the time, offer to go in on a weekend, even if its at premium rates for contractors,eek!
I doubt your insurers would be too impressed with disclaimers and the unsatisfactory report not being actioned.

A full rewire is very likely to take more than two days, even if you go the (not much cheaper) surface mount route.

Remember to factor in a bit of redecorating too... the one (1 bed) flat we had to rewire took me a couple of weeks to redecorate, every wall and every ceiling had to be redone. It had to be done though, you cannot rely of earths using steel conduit or 1960s cables anymore.

Can someone please confirm if it is a legal requirement to have a boiler and cooker PAT tested even if they have fixed wiring? I assumed that PAT was portable appliance testing?!

I think I may be being taken for a ride by the letting agent.

From
https://www.lettingaproperty.com/landlord/blog/pat-testing-for-landlords/#pat-testing-legal-requirement

Is PAT testing a legal requirement for landlords?
Portable Appliance Testing is not an official legal requirement for landlords in England and Wales, however, it is considered best practice. The government state that landlords must make sure “the electrical system is safe” and “all appliances they supply are safe”.

Whilst it is not a government legal requirement, it may be a condition enforced by your local council. Some areas, such as Newcastle Upon Tyne, require landlords to carry out a PAT test on their electrical appliances.

Houses of Multiple Occupation (HMOs) must have PAT tests carried out.

Thanks GriffMG

Whilst I understand what you have stated it does not answer my question. I would like to know if my agent is trying to pull a fast one by saying I need a PAT on my boiler and cooker (both hard wired)?

I do not PAT test boilers or cookers, I could be persuaded to test washing machines, fridges and freezers - but never have, because as soon as they don't look new (and/or the tenancy is being renewed) we replace them.

Now, it COULD be that your agent has that requirement written into your contract as part for his service level agreement, or something like that, but there is no requirement to PAT test a boiler, it's very much not portable. Cookers could be a grey area. If an electric cooker is 'hard wired' into a cooker spur it probably can't easily be tested, if a gas cooker needs power for ignition and lighting... it could be tested, but I wouldn't be comfortable with an electrician testing it unless they are Safe registered for gas work...

That is what I was thinking. Thanks for explaining.

I do not supply fridge/freezer, cooker or washing machine so I do not need to test them. I also would have thought that during each EICR/GSC this would be looked at and then if any visual inspections are done.

I will be having a word with my agent!

Of course a gas cooker would be safety checked each year anyway... by a Safe registered engineer.

Cookers and boilers are fixed equipment, they do not form part of the COPISITEE code of practice for in service electrical equipment. Fixed equipment forms an electrical circuit under BS7671. Showers, boilers, immersion heaters and so on.
Simply put, COPISITEE applys to electrical equipment which has a plug and socket arrangement. You can't even test something that's fix wired, with a PAT test meter!
If you have any anomolies like fan assisted ovens, cooker hoods or gas hob ignitions that plug in, its best to cut the plug off, and install a switched fused spur, that takes things into the fixed wire bracket, and away from PAT arguments.
Companies and Housing Associations can, and do, adopt a best practice policy, which protects their position from a negligence stand point, but thats all. There's no requirement legally, no expiry or retest due date on PAT labels anymore.

Pretty much what I said then

Hi,
We are tenants & finally had an electrical safety check carried out on April 19th 2021 this was arranged by the agents. When the electrician had finished after about 3 hrs he told me there was remedial work to be done. He said the landlord/ agents did not have to have him do them that was up to them. But he said things needed doing to be able to get a certificate. We have had nothing through the post or email about this since. Yet at the start of May we were served notice. Can our landlord do this? Thanks in advance

@E Lowe

The two things aren't necessarily linked. In theory you should have been sent a copy of the report and the remedial works should have been done within 28 days of the first report.

If the landlord was planning to sell up though then perhaps he is taking a risk and delaying any work until the property is empty?

You could make a fuss about the fact you didn't get the report and the remedial work hasn't been done, but it probably won't change the fact that notice has been served. What was the remedial work?

An electrical inspection was instigated by my agent (for the moment!!) and came up with a fail. The estimate - and inspection results - were derided by two other electricians I consulted. I am now in the position that remedial work is done, and the alternative contractor I instructed has issued a "satisfactory" and certificate to confirm.
Can I just bin the original, or have I any obligation to it?

So if electricians that give me a cheap eicr can make crap up, that means ones that charge a lot can too, how do I know I am being lied to regarding stuff I cant even see!! What a hell this is!!!!!

@Dace Dastardly

It's a licence to print money, like the energy performance certificates where some people attend, take photos and measurements and then write a report - and others are able to do it from a car parked outside and some will do it over email... without a site visit or photos, so long as the payment clears...

@GriffMG thanks, and how do I find one of those guys when we all need level C haha.

I'm seriously thinking about doing the course...

@Landlord, no I've not heard anything about changes to the intrepetation.

It would make a lot of sense though, there is no way the PRS can bring everything up
to a C, some properties just cannot be upgraded (not without making a Grenfell anyway).

Thanks, I thought I was fine with all the basics (I'm about to become a firt-time landlord in a couple months) but looks like I am going to have to do daily research for quite a while.

How do the companies such as open rent advertised on here operate? Is the electrician that comes allowed to do follow up work? If he has no opportunity to do so and only allowed to do the report then that would obviously be fantastic.

@The Landlord Thanks, can you think of anything I can do to reduce the chances of being ripped off? All I've got is telling them it was fine a few years ago when I lived there. :/

@Dace Dastardly - a personal recommendation is probably going to be the way to go, find another landlord who has had a good experience... I have very little confidence in the so-called 'trusted' review sites. Too many almost identical reviews all saying 'Kevin was brilliant' when there is no Kevin...

@Dace Dastardly Ah the Sparkies. In my experience in over 35 years of being a landlord managing properties, you will find that the sparks love to rip apart the previous guys work. That goes for most tradesmen not just electricians. Rarely will you find one who doesn't add his own 'two pence worth' after looking at previous work. Don't worry too much about this as they all do it, its almost written in their manual. I had all my EICR's done before the due date, and many of them tried their best to have one over me before I found an honest decent one who's worth his salt.

At first its always a lottery who you're going to get, but make sure you don't give off the vibe that you have NO IDEA about anything. I always make sure they know I'm dealing with tradesmen day in day out (even if i'm not I'll just make up some small talk that I've got a good friend who's a spark working on something else so he couldn't do this one). Once you've set the seed that you know what to expect its harder to be ripped off. Better yet, become friendly and have a bit of that tradesmen banter with them, call them by their first name instead of "mate" or "pal". They'll appreciate it.

This may seem odd but I always do "the Van check". If they pull up in a brand new 2022 Ford Custom Tourneo fully wrapped, I'll be ready for a high price. Similarly if honest John turns up in his clapped out 53 plate Citreon Berlingo, I'll assume he may be of fairer play. This has turned out to be true in a lot of cases (not all) but little signs can tell you everything before they've even stepped through the door.

Best of luck with the new venture.

@Se7en Thanks Se7en I will defo do the van check. Will probably select someone from https://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/Search and ask what rating they give wylex MCB's before booking them.. anything higher then C3 and I will hang up.

@The Landlord I only need a new EICR from the other worker if I demand it due to smelling BS in the first report and the previous guy doesn't retract it. If i'm happy to go fix what's in the EICR report, I don't need a new one with the 2nd worker.

Was considering telling whoever I book that I intend to choose a different workmen to carry out any remedial work before I even book him. It would remove conflict of interests, but then I might get Bullshit fails out of pettiness heh.

Oh and I have the house alaram disconnected atm, that doesn't fall under the EICR test's territory does it?